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Jesse Brown 0:00
So Doug, are you going to interview me for this podcast? Because I was the angry? Actually, I am the angry one. You’re not that angry. A lot doesn’t get you angry, Doug.

Douglas Brown 0:06
I am actually exclusively angry. I am only angry.

Jesse Brown 0:10
You just shut it shut it way down. You just don’t. I think you express anger and a different… anxiety.

Douglas Brown 0:23
That’s what it is. It’s not anger. You know, we have this, We have this bleep out button. We needed an anxiety button. I don’t know what it would be something. Wait every time you say anxiety or you’re feeling anxiety. Every time I feel anxiety. I’m gonna hit this button today.

Right Jesse? Should we start?

I got my anxiety button. You have your anger bleep. We are ready to do a podcast about infertility and anger.

Jesse Brown 0:56
Let’s do this.

Welcome back to the infertility feelings podcast your place to process cry and laugh about infertility. We are so happy to have you here. And we hope you enjoy today’s conversation.

Douglas Brown 1:21
I am going to interview you Jesse husband and wife interview about infertility and anger. This can’t go wrong. Obviously, when you deal with infertility. It’s sad. I think the world thinks that it’s sad if you have dealt with infertility in any way. You know that. It’s sad, right? Y ou had all these plans for your life. They’re not going the way you want them to. So sad. And so it’s heartbreaking.

Jesse Brown 1:48
I think it’s a universal thing that people can get behind is like, oh, it’s sad. You’re not getting something that you want. Yeah. And it’s sad, but I don’t think that everyone thinks that it brews anger.

Douglas Brown 2:01
Do you think people think we’re allowed to be angry about being infertile? Fertile? Sounds like so I know, we can say that we’re infertile.

Jesse Brown 2:08
I know. I know. Something that I’ve actually are infertile, right? I know. Because I see someone who’s like the infertile and it’s like, no, yeah. People that are struggling with infertility. They’re not infertile, we are in fertile.

Douglas Brown 2:21
there that is? No, but okay, there’s

Jesse Brown 2:23
the anxiety. Let me go back.

Douglas Brown 2:26
Let me go back. Do you think that people do you think it changes when we’re like, say someone’s all angry about their infertility? I think people are have a harder time handling that. It’s like, whoa, buddy. I am okay, if you’re sad, but why are you all angry? Why you’re pissed off? You’re

Jesse Brown 2:42
it makes people uncomfortable. So it’s like, I can handle you if you’re sad.

Douglas Brown 2:46
You said it. It makes people anxious.

Jesse Brown 2:49
Yes, it makes people anxious. I feel and it’s just more uncomfortable. It’s more uncomfortable to sit in someone’s anger with them, and just let them spew. Then be like, sad. Well, both are human. Both are hard. Yeah. Both are hard for the human race. But I think anger is a step above.

Douglas Brown 3:08
No, you’re right. I’m awkward. Yeah. Um,

Jesse Brown 3:11
and I want to say like, as I maybe we’re gonna get to this, but yeah, as the person that is struggling with infertility, I think sometimes anger can surprise them. Or they almost feel ashamed that they’re angry. Or they feel you know, I shouldn’t feel this way. I shouldn’t be angry. It’s okay. If I’m sad, because everyone else understands that or if that’s more understanding in your brain.

Douglas Brown 3:33
Yeah, but, but the reality is infertility does make us angry. It made me really angry, right? Regardless if we feel like we have room to be angry, or if people are more willing to accept the anger or less willing to accept the anger, we are angry about infertility. I was I was angry. What does it feel like for you? When you think about infertility being something that made you angry?

Jesse Brown 4:00
I had stages of it. So I had like, stage one anger. I had stage one anger, which is like, pure unadulterated rage.

Douglas Brown 4:09
What about frustration, wait… your stage one anger is pure unadulterated rage?!

Jesse Brown 4:15
It’s true, though. We’re gonna have to do an IUI already raging?

Douglas Brown 4:18
I don’t know. Like, don’t you feel like stage one? Being like, it just was frustrated. Frustrating. Not to put words in your mouth.

Jesse Brown 4:31
it was frustrating. And it was Yeah, I would. It’s fair to say that it was brewing it brewed. Yeah, you know, it wasn’t instantly but for some, I guess just for me. But it was it was frustrating. It grew into frustrating I remember even in my IUI getting the IUI done and I had to like hold my pee like your bladder had to be like yeah, that was like alright you I experienced was not a pretty picture. I was I was You were angry.

Douglas Brown 5:00
I was angry. I was angry at you and the doctor. The Doctors told you to have a somewhat full bladder and

Jesse Brown 5:09
if you know me, I have bladder issues where I if I have to go pee, I have to go pee right now. Like I have peed outside of a car.

Douglas Brown 5:18
Yeah, they like they gave the most impossible situation, have a full bladder that’s not too full kind of full, you definitely want it full. But it don’t feel like you have to pee. You know, just make sure it’s full, but not too full. That whole morning, the stress and anxiety. It is that stress and anxiety of feeling like that’s impossible. I was just I was I was angry about the whole situation frustrated at the whole situation stressful. Because you had to pee so bad. And then you were like, Why don’t wanna pee? Because, yes, yeah, the doctor was like, oh, it’s not that big a deal. And I’m like, Are you serious? This is it was the beginning to me of feeling like this was a bigger deal to us than it was to anyone else. And it was like, Why? Why are we not being treated?

Jesse Brown 6:11
Like queens and kings? Yeah, we’re like, sacred special.

Douglas Brown 6:15
It was like, in my mind, like, an IUI was like, that’s the thing we’re doing this month. And of course, like, we’re not we’ve done podcasts and conversations about infertility doctors, they’re doing 10 a day, right? It’s not possible for them to be on the same wavelength as we are. But that to me was the seed of stage one frustration,

Jesse Brown 6:35
right? And I think for me, it’s like,

Douglas Brown 6:37
Pure adulterated rage?!

Jesse Brown 6:40
No, I was mad at you. Because you were mad at me. I was like, What are you going to do? How do I control my body? I can’t control this, I have to pee so bad. And you’re just looking at me with rage. As for me, it was like, it ruined an experience when normal typically, when you just have sex and you have, you know, you get pregnant naturally, and you have that way, and you’re not struggling with infertility or don’t have to do these treatments. It’s like, I was starting to accept that this might be the way that we get pregnant. And I really wanted that moment to be sacred. Yeah, especially special maybe, or like a good experience. Or maybe me and you sing Kumbaya and like, hold hands. Yeah, you know, because typically, in this situation, when you just have sex, it’s probably a pretty good experience. Such a natural, get pregnant. And there it is. So it’s like I think I was putting that expectation on to that moment. And then when it wasn’t, and it was stressful, and you were stressed and anxious. Yeah, waiting. Thanks. Anxious, no button. Okay. And then your anxiety turned into anger. And then I was almost frustrated with my body and I was already already frustrated at my body. Yeah, you know, for just being struggling with infertility. So, at that moment was so hard, and I remember running out of the room and peeing, I almost peed my pants and right by the nurse, she was like, Oh, you got it sweetie. You know, it was just like, ugh

Douglas Brown 8:07
Not to classify things, but my history as a philosopher, I only classify things in my mind and define terms. I just think, okay, if, to me, frustration, comes out of missed expectations. I expected it to be expected to be this magical moment, right? Or I expected the experience when we’re in the clinic or whatever, we’re, yeah, be more…

Jesse Brown 8:36
Yes, you’ve already lost so many of those experiences that you put so much more expectation of like, this will be our moment where we I literally, genuinely mean like, sing Kumbaya and like, hold hands and gaze into each other’s eyes that we’re making a child. You know, and it was the opposite.

Douglas Brown 8:51
You wanted to gaze into that little monitor with the like, one thing Yeah, no, no, you I mean, you could have a moment while the while the one thing is inside of you perfect.

Jesse Brown 9:02
No when you wait for 15 minutes for it to like yeah,

Douglas Brown 9:05
never gonna do that was such a weird bad experience. Anyways, okay. So our expectations are not met. So to me, that’s frustrations frustration, right? It reads frustration. Like I wanted it to be one way. It’s another way now. I’m feeling frustrated. Anger feels like it comes out of injustice. Like oh, this, this frickin shouldn’t have happened. Right? Yeah. When you do the IUI everything looks perfect, quote, air, you know, air quotes, right? And the doctors like this is it and we wait. And then I was told I had a beautiful uterus. Yeah, like it doesn’t work that feels like we’re shit. But uterus. Great. That feels like an injustice and anger feels like it comes out of injustice. I remember the moment even in or what we thought would be unjust. You know?

Jesse Brown 9:58
Yeah, I remember the moment where it turned into rage, from frustration into rage

Douglas Brown 10:03
Did have to do with feeling like this feels wrong?

Jesse Brown 10:05
Yes It was after our IUI, and we were going into IVF. And I needed a blood test. And it was like across town. And you were picking me up from work. And I had a new client. I was a hairdresser at the time. And I had a new client and she wanted to talk about all these products that she wanted to buy, right? And I am literally shaking with rage that she’s wanting to talk to me and buy this new product and I see you waiting in the car and you’re like, almost about to honk like we have to do because the the clinic was about to close. And I remember driving down the freeway so angry. I was so angry. I was angry at people that were driving slow. I was angry you I was angry at my client, God forbid that wanted to like bye product and actually, like make me condition like, and I think my frustration came my my rage came from it not working at an injustice. But it was starting to bleed into my life. I mean, it already had.

Douglas Brown 11:00
Almost the Justice became so big that it was like, This shouldn’t have happened. Yeah,

Jesse Brown 11:04
I shouldn’t be mad at my client and having Doug and I fight all the way down the freeway to get this stupid blood test that the thing was about to close. It just was like that is when my rage really started to brew was that was like it started to bleed into our lives, our communication, our marriage, my job. Like it just and that’s that’s what my turning point was.

Douglas Brown 11:41
Let’s recap. So phase one. Phase one is just frustration.

Jesse Brown 11:44
Your expectations aren’t met. Yeah, my expectations aren’t met. Phase two is like pure unadulterated rage.

Douglas Brown 11:50
So phase two pure unadulterated rage because there’s like something feels like it’s wrong. Yes. You have a phase three.

Jesse Brown 11:57
I have phase three. Pure, unadulterated defeat.

Douglas Brown 12:03
Just collapse?

Jesse Brown 12:05
Your anger turns into nothing. It turns into like, okay. It won. It won. Yeah, I’m done. And it’s almost like it. I mean, you could say stuffing maybe or whatever. I don’t I don’t know if it’s necessarily stuffing. It’s like, frustration, rage. And those all can be cycles all the time with everything. And then number three is just pure unadulterated. Like, I give up.

Douglas Brown 12:31
It’s like you lose your willpower. Like you’re so angry. But the monster is so big that you’re like you lose your will to fight it.

Jesse Brown 12:38
Yeah. Like almost like walk all over me. Yeah, I don’t care. Okay, it’s $1,000. All right. Like, it just it really felt like just absolute defeat.

Douglas Brown 12:52
got to be a good feeling. Yeah, super. I was super excited for you. For you, Doug I’m sure. But you’re saying though, when you were defeated, and letting infertility almost beat you up, really you were angry?

Jesse Brown 13:08
Yeah. Like right below the surface of anger. Yeah.

Yeah. Or it’s or sad and sad. But you didn’t mean like, it’s almost like, I picture it like, Okay, this is annoying. I don’t like this. And then going to I’m so angry. This is such an injustice. How dare this happen to Doug and I will make excellent parents to then. All right. Yeah, just give up. But not in a way of like, give up so I can make peace. It’s like, give up because I’m too exhausted to be angry anymore. That’s what it is. I’m almost too exhausted even though it’s there. I’m almost too exhausted to like, stand up for the injustice.

Douglas Brown 13:53
I think that’s exactly how I experienced it. That might be how a lot of people experienced in the beginning. You’re like, oh, this is so annoying. Like, I can’t believe how to leave work to go do this thing. And then and then maybe you have a couple of failures.

Jesse Brown 14:07
A couple of failures sounds so sad.

Douglas Brown 14:09
A couple of times even you’re like this is gonna be our time. And it doesn’t work right. And then you get angry and the injustice enters in and you’re thinking this is wrong. Like how is this happening to me? Screw this I hate this. Yes. And then I feel like it’s true. You get to a point where you go all right. I don’t even care anymore. I want to keep I want to keep going. But whatever I got leave work whatever from quit my job. I don’t care. take a leave of absence. failure. Failure. Yeah, money. Really, it’s almost like you go beyond the anger and to just fall on your like blown up at that point.

Jesse Brown 14:49
I think the best way to say it is I couldn’t stand up for the injustice for myself anymore. I couldn’t feel that rage anymore. Because I was just so defeated. Yeah, but it was like, it wasn’t rage anymore. It was just numb. And I couldn’t, I almost didn’t have the energy to be angry anymore, even though I was.

Douglas Brown 15:10
I almost get that picture of a warrior who’s fighting a battle. And they’re they use the rage, they have an anger, they have to win the battle to keep going, keep going, keep going. But if the enemy keeps hitting them, almost like they get right, they get to that point where they go, I’m defeated, and they lay down your white flag.

That’s a perfect image. It’s almost like a white flag. It’s like the frustration was built. So you had the war, to do the war. You’re probably frustrated about things. That’s why you’re fighting someone, right? And then now you’re in it. And you’re like, this is such an injustice. How bad is this and you fight everybody and then you wave your white flag? Yeah. And then fertility can do that.

The hero and the person that we always want to be like, we’re like, yes. Is the person who always keeps their passion keeps their anger and their rage it’s interesting. Right. Infertility is such a monster. And the pain of struggling to get pregnant is such a monster that it just white flags us.

Jesse Brown 16:10
I think there’s nothing else that I’ve experienced, where I’ve been so angry, and then wasn’t necessarily towards the end displaying anything that was like anger. It was like a Okay, numb.

Douglas Brown 16:41
This all leads us to an important idea. I think. I don’t want I don’t think we want anyone to be in that place of feeling numb. groundless, blown up, and dead inside.

Jesse Brown 16:55
I mean, but I think if we are part of the journey, but yes.

Douglas Brown 16:58
It’s part of the journey. But no one wants to be there, though. Right. I think a lot of people end up signing up for our groups, because they do feel that way. And I think they want to get feel more resilience. They want to get out of that place of failure.

Jesse Brown 17:11
I have heard many times I don’t want to feel this way anymore. I want a change. Yeah, I can’t be in this zone anymore.

Douglas Brown 17:18
Exactly. Yeah. So I think we want to be able to avoid that. Although sometimes it is unavoidable. But we are we want to get out of that. Because you can get stuck in there for a long time.

Jesse Brown 17:29
Yes. I think it’s a phase that you can get stuck in probably the longest, right?

Douglas Brown 17:34
I think we get there by feeling angry feeling these things, feeling all these feelings and just having to just manage them and just cope with them the best we know how we get keep getting hit, keep getting hit, keep getting hit, you get to a point where you just go, I can’t keep up my coping mechanisms. I can’t keep doing the things that I was doing. And you just blown you know, that that’s really that’s traumatizing. Yeah. So really going back and finding the anger. There’s something in the anger that we have to deal with. Or we have to, in a way, like use the anger. Because something’s going on with when we are angry our bodies, our minds are telling us something. That we have to deal with. And I think this is our lovely infertility feelings. helpful reminder that from I think, you know, from a psychological perspective and all the work that we do with therapists and building programs to help people connect and feel more resilient. So we have found that something is in the anger that is an opportunity for us. I’ll say that, right. Hopefully, that’s as friendly as we can come across. There’s something going on when we feel angry about infertility, that is an opportunity and invitation to do something with that anger, so that we don’t get to a place of feeling blown.

Jesse Brown 19:00
Would you say that when you’re feeling angry? It could be a sign that there’s something to deal with?

Douglas Brown 19:07
Okay, like remember, what’s the movie Apollo 13?

Jesse Brown 19:11
What’s the movie? Like one of the most famous movies of all time? Okay, yeah.

Douglas Brown 19:17
I love that movie.

Jesse Brown 19:18
I love that and we just watched that on vacation.

Douglas Brown 19:20
Who doesnt love Apollo 13?

Jesse Brown 19:23
Sucks me in every time, every time I’m like, Are they gonna make it? Make it in space? Even though I know they’re gonna make it I still have spoiler alert for anyone hasn’t seen a movie they make it yet.

Douglas Brown 19:35
Spoiler alert?! US American History major movie of all time. Spoiler alert!

Jesse Brown 19:42
I Love that. I didn’t even think of that. I only thought about the movie. I didn’t think that oh people would know this from history.

Douglas Brown 19:47
But think about Apollo 13 Sorry sidetracked, Apollo 13. They’re in the they’re in the spaceship all of a sudden. You know they stir the tank or whatever and all these lights come on. To me, that’s anger, right? Something has happened to where all of our lights have gone off, and now we’re angry. I think it could be frustration. It could be Oh, What was I expecting to happen? It could be an injustice, Oh, this feels wrong to me. But when the emotional lights go off of anger, I think we have an opportunity at that point. Because if you just go, oh, my gosh, I’m angry. And you leave all the lights on? You might think that someone would say, well, they’re probably on for a reason. You leave them on long enough, you might get blown up in in you might feel numb and just dead inside. It’s like, I feel dead inside. Right? So what’s going on Jesse that we could investigate?

Jesse Brown 20:47
What did that have to do with Apollot 13? What was the takeaway from that movie?

Douglas Brown 20:51
In Apollo 13 All the lights come on all the warning lights, right? And then that’s when he calls Houston and goes, Houston, we have a %&*# problem. Okay, I didn’t really say it. Mom in case you’re listening?

Jesse Brown 21:06
Oh, gosh, you don’t think your mother… she’s fine. Um, so thinking about that, you know, anger sometimes is a great alarm to go off internally or in our heads. Yeah, to probably look inward. And it’s an opportunity to investigate. How am I feeling? What is going on? What am I really sad about? What am I really, really, really feeling. And I think that’s something if you do that in the rage mode, it can prevent you to go into that numb place of just pure unadulterated defeat. And hopelessness is if, okay, I’m feeling ragey and got mad at somebody on the freeway or whatever it looks like. It’s like, and the experiences aren’t matching. For me it was experiences weren’t matching, what was I was experiencing, my rage was bigger than what I was actually experiencing. And it could be anything, something stupid, or whatever. And so that can be a really great opportunity to look inward. And like all our great therapists say, what’s underneath anger, most of the time is grief. And just sad that you’re going through this, it sucks. It’s really hard. And I think if we can start to integrate that kind of thinking, when we are ragey, or our experiences aren’t matching our rage, or whatever it is that we can look inward, and it’s opportunity to feel more deeply and to look inside or to express something, are we shoving things that we do express to our partner, to our family, to our friends, whatever it is. And I think that can help us not passed over into that third phase into just pure unadulterated defeat.

Douglas Brown 22:49
That completely matches up with what I think. And I think what, from a therapeutic perspective, yeah, kind of the thought process of when we are angry the pathway that we should walk down in our own selves. I think that just matches up exactly is that anger is when all of these lights turn on. And we go, Oh, something is off. My expectations were off. I’m feeling frustrated. Yeah, my ex, it’s this isn’t meeting my expectations. I’m feeling frustrated. This feels wrong. To me, it feels unjust to me, you’re almost becomes this opportunity to be motivated by the anger, you become motivated by these strong feelings of Screw this. This isn’t right. I’m pissed off, let that be a motivation to figure out what’s really going on. Maybe there is an actual injustice that needs to be addressed. Yeah, they told me this. And they lied to me. That’s wrong. Right? Yeah. Go figure out advocate for that, go figure out. Why did that happen? Maybe a change needs to be made. Maybe the anger can be the motivation that you need to make a healthy change. I mean, if you’re angry that you’ve been doing the same thing for the last couple months, you’re like, I’m angry about this. Maybe that’s the motivation. You need to change things for the next month change things going forward. But there are times I think, with infertility that the injustice is there, but there’s nothing we can do about it. Right? Why did this happen to me? That’s so huge. And we can say this is wrong. This should have never happened to me. The way you know, we can’t change that necessarily.

Jesse Brown 24:34
You think that’s what it boils down to. Where anger really comes from with infertility, is why is this happening to me?

Douglas Brown 24:40
I think so. I use the word cosmic just laughs at me, but it feels like a cosmic injustice. How Why is this happening to me? The way that you deal with the cosmic injustice isn’t you can’t fix the cosmos. You can’t rewrite the entire world to make things not have happened this way. Because you get to the his point where acceptance has to be part of what you’re doing. Accepting that this is your reality. I mean, that’s the kind of stuff we teach all the time talking about all the time, right is how do we accept our reality? How do we actually like make friends with this world that we were living in?

Jesse Brown 25:14
Because no matter what if we make friends with it or not, we’re still in it. We’re still in our friends with it. Right? So you want to or not.

Douglas Brown 25:19
The anger is an alarm that’s going off. And sometimes that is a motivation that we need to change something. Yeah, a lot of times, if I’m being perfectly honest, in my life, nine times out of 10, in the stories that we hear, yeah, nine times out of 10, it’s an opportunity to do the harder work honestly, of feeling the feelings that are beneath anger are the things that are motivating anger, whether it’s sadness, grief, that this is happening to us pain, that we didn’t want things to happen to us, anxiety, feelings, depressed about where we’re at unmowed lists all these really real feelings that are going on under the surface. And a lot of times they’re displayed as anger. So use the anger to investigate use it as motivation to change what you can, and to dig into the feelings in the areas that you can’t change. What are you really feeling?

Jesse Brown 26:15
And I think, why that’s so hard. And why we don’t do that is because it’s vulnerable? Yeah. Sometimes it’s easier to rage, at least for me. Yeah, in my right. Have injustice happen. Seven on the Enneagram, wing eight, yeah, my wing eight comes out of my injustice. And it’s like, very easy for me to get rage II and almost feel safer for me. But it’s more vulnerable to go in and go, Oh, I’m just really sad. And this is my reality. And I have to make friends with it and sit in it. That’s, that’s why I think it’s so hard is it’s that vulnerable, vulnerable, more tender, tender space and almost feel safer to go the other way.

Douglas Brown 26:56
Okay, you bring up a good point, though, I always like to think why would we actually want to address this stuff? Why wouldn’t we just want to rage rage? Rage on forevermore? Right? Why can’t we just be rage monsters till the day we die? Until or until we get pregnant? Or until we move on? Why can’t we just how’s the rage within us forever? I think the reality is nobody can you either. You ended up really developing something that you don’t want to have developed for me. I felt like I did you develop anxiety, right? And I don’t want to live in anxiety forever. But if I just don’t deal with why I’m feeling angry about infertility, why do I feel like it’s unjust? Why do I feel like all these things coming up in me? And I just want to move forward and use my anger to get pregnant until I start to feel anxious. And so much anxiety comes up within me. For you, maybe the opposite of feeling like you just go numb. Yeah. And you go dead inside. Yeah. And that’s, and that’s a horrible feeling.

Jesse Brown 28:03
Yeah, it was safer for me to choose that than to go towards the feelings. Yeah. Because the feelings were vulnerable. And I was like, Oh, I don’t know if I want to do that. Actually look at what’s happening. Right, I might not be able to have children of my own right. It was easier for me to go up, hands up, defeat white flag. I’m done. Like, I’ll just feel nothing. It really did feel safer in my mind.

Douglas Brown 28:25
But don’t you think that’s where you end up with? Well, how does infertility affect your life so much? It’s like, this kind of stuff, right? You’re so angry is you just feel like it’s so unjust and so maddening. Yeah. And then it’s hard and vulnerable to look at your feelings. So you just kind of keep moving forward. But then you go, Oh, my gosh, it’s been 10 years, I feel numb and zoned out. Like I’ve kind of pulled away from my world. And I’m just kind of blank. Or I’m depressed. I’m anxious. Yeah, my mental health is just getting destroyed. You look back and go, How the heck did I end up here? Yeah, I’m not saying this is totally it. But it’s possible. That anger was there all along. And we were really angry and we didn’t do anything with it.

Jesse Brown 29:16
We didn’t use it as opportunity. Yeah. To feel.

Douglas Brown 29:18
I think that’s maybe our loving encouragement. You don’t have to do this. No. Yeah. Do anything we say. It could be. Yeah, that anger is an opportunity for you to investigate. What’s going on? Is there an injustice happening? Is there mistakes, expectations that you could solve? Figure that out? Let that be the motivation? Or Is there stuff to grieve? stuff, you know, feelings to have? And people to talk to? Right? How can you get this stuff out so that so that it doesn’t stay at a level 10 anger forever until you until it blows you up?

Jesse Brown 29:54
And for me when I went to therapy and started to actually feel my feelings and and choose vulnerability. It really did bring a lot of relief, even though it was really hard and scary and sad. It did make me less angry. And my hope for the world, still complicated to this day, but came came, came back, and it started brewing back. So, I mean, it really does help. And it really does work. Yeah, it to look at your feelings, even though it’s vulnerable in a safe space, but look at your feelings and it will it will help the rage. It will help you know your hopelessness. It will.

Douglas Brown 30:40
So anger is not wrong.

Jesse Brown 30:44
No!

Do you want me to get angry about you need to be angry, you are allowed to be angry, and I see you in it. And I know what that feels like. And it’s okay. It’s okay to be angry. And if you’re not angry, maybe it’s time to get angry because this is a really hard world and a really unfair world. But also use your anger as an opportunity to go inward and to feel and maybe don’t go like Doug where it just turned into anxiety or me where it just turned into nothing. And if you’re in the nothing phase right now, that’s okay. That’s okay, too. I was in that for a while.

Douglas Brown 31:21
You can always choose to process your feelings. Yeah, you can always choose to like get stuff going.

Jesse Brown 31:27
Never too late. Like if you’re like I am at my hopeless and of all of everything, and I can’t feel anything. That’s okay. Still opportunity to grieve. If you are the most anxious, feeling anxious, feeling depressed, don’t know how to do the day. That’s okay. It’s still an opportunity to grieve and look at your reality. Join our programs.

Douglas Brown 31:51
Do you know what made me the most up in arms? The most angry in our IVF process? Was having to spend the amount of money that we spend for a chance. Yeah, you know, yeah, that was the thing that made me the most angry. Yeah, because when I didn’t work, it was like we did all of that for what felt just like an opportunity for something to work with. Really, no guarantee, you know, like you buy a car, they slap a guarantee. There’s a warranty. Price. They’re like, hey, in four years, if this just goes to crap, like we’ll fix it for you know,

Jesse Brown 32:32
It’s so funny. Then we went into adoption thinking that would be a guarantee, right?

Douglas Brown 32:36
Oh, yes. To podcasts for another day.

Jesse Brown 32:39
Two disrupted adoptions!

Douglas Brown 32:42
But that really made me so that felt wrong. That felt like no, that’s not cool. I know where my I’m spending that much money for the hope that it’s good. That’s like going to get a tattoo. And the tattoo cost $20,000. But you have no idea what the person is going to draw. And I like I hope it’s good. Right? Hope it works. It could be like a nine year old drawing of a tree on my back. Or it could be awesome. I don’t know. Yeah. And that is so mad. That feels wrong. It feels just very permanently scarring. I guess I’d use the word.

Jesse Brown 33:20
Yeah. I know where my anger all boils from, I realized it in therapy was I knew we’d be really good parents. And it was like, that was a big injustice to the cosmic injustice. Oh, here we go. But it’s like, yeah, I knew would be good parents. I knew that we would love a child so well. And we have such amazing community around us. Yeah. As in family and friends and us and a great place to live that I was I was just like, I cannot believe this is not happening. I cannot believe that this is not happening for Doug. And I like Yeah, and I was so angry about that. That’s where my pure unadulterated anger and then in therapy, that’s when I turned into like, and then what does that also make you feel? And it’s like, sad. And it’s like, yeah, it’s because I was. I was really, really, really sad, but it felt really unfair. Yeah, I knew we would be good parents. Yeah.

Douglas Brown 34:09
And it’s so true. The way to deal with that is not to rewrite the universe. The way to deal with that is to grieve the reality that you’re in. Yeah. Well, I’m glad I didn’t have to use my anxiety button that much. Only four or five times? Only for about that’s about about 35 minutes. I got about four or five anxiety.

Jesse Brown 34:32
Okay, do you think we covered everything? Still there anxiety is a brewing. Doug, are you angry?

Douglas Brown 34:41
I’m not angry. I don’t get angry. I just get. Anxioussss…

Jesse Brown 34:55
Thank you for listening to the Infertility Feelings podcast, a show produced by the nonprofit you McLean in it. This is your place to process, cry and laugh about infertility. We are so grateful to all of our wonderful donors who support this work. If you would like to learn more about how we serve the community and support the work of uniquely knitted, we encourage you to check us out at uniquely knitted.org. If you enjoy this podcast and would like more people to hear it, please give us a rating and a comment in Apple podcast. This is the best way for more people to hear these conversations. See you guys next week.